Jump to content

Bjs is moving fast


Pryme8
 Share

Recommended Posts

52 minutes ago, getzel said:

@Nockawa

Thx for your help.

By Wiki I thought about editing online (cms with validating process after).

 

 

I understand, but right now this is all we've got and there's a lot of content right now, doing a separate site would confuse users more. You'll see that the process is really straightforward once you've done one. 

A lot more OSS project rely on git/markdown for blog, articles, documentations. Give it a try! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*nod*  I used-to build the docs site on my local machine... just to check the automated Table Of Contents (TOC) generator... make sure I had my #, ##, ###, #### headers set correctly... on a new doc.  Nowadays, I'm pretty good at getting it right, first try.  So, I write new docs in a app called Markdown Pad 2... and then I just paste it into my online docs repo (a clone of BJS docs, to my personal GitHub site).  Then PR, and clean up later.  :)

Back in the old days of BJS, we had more "tutorials" and less "help docs".  Tutorials tend to mean step-by-step to an accomplishment, where a help doc or info doc... can be about a specific sub-system.  We have some of both, yet.  Our tutorials are fairly beginner level and don't get adjusted very often, but our info-docs (about specific sub-systems) is growing like a wildfire... mostly done by the inventors of those sub-systems.

I don't know how many people are watching forum questions and trying to see where the noobs get stuck... most often.  I try to monitor for that, and I usually write on-forum tutorials... big long posts... where I not only try to get the user past the snag, but predict where they will be going next.  To be frank, these on-forum help files are much easier to write than standard .md docs.  I can get them done much faster, and it is just as easy to find them as .md docs... with forum search.  Plus, I get full control of what is in them, where, with .md docs, others can edit them.  And, when I write a "forum tutorial" in answering a user's question, then I am automatically contouring the doc... to an actual forum question... sometimes a repeated question.

So, I dunno.  This is my first forum ever, so I'm sure I don't use it "properly".  I'm not sure if I CARE if I use it properly, or if there IS such a thing as "proper".

In this thread, some have thought I was arguing or taking sides.  I wasn't and am still not.  I am voicing my opinions... based upon things I have seen.  Some didn't like the things I said.  Some disagree.  I expect that.  But I also expect folks to own-up to things I say... that... once investigated and weighed... prove to be correct.

Getzel... you're one of the few that have said something like "I understand why you (and P8) say these things." (loose quote).  Sure, the way I say things... isn't always pretty or tactful.  This can aggravate people.  I wish it wouldn't.  I wish they would get past their emotional reactions, and fairly weigh what I say.  But others are going to have different priorities than me... that's completely natural and normal.  We all grew-up differently and have had different experiences.  I'm not very intelligent, so I have a unique perspective to this technical world of BJS and all the side-tech that travels with it.  When the forum in predominantly populated with tech-smart people, I am sure to be out-numbered.  But that is not going to stop me from reminding the tech-heads... that hugging noobs... pays off in the end.  Want the kids and girls here?  Make BJS and its forum a completely friendly place and system.

SOME... don't want those type of people around here.  Some claim (and believe) that "gentles" don't belong here.  These type of people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, with candy coating.  I can understand that point and reason, too (of not wanting those type around here).  Nurse-maiding is like a ball and chain around the ankle of a trail-blazing techie.

See why there isn't really any "sides" or "arguing" possible, here?  I don't think a "correct way" has ever been established... for an endeavor as wide as BJS and all of its associated side-tech things.  Truth is, I'm not qualified to speak about trail-blazing new tech, so I don't know what kind of priority SHOULD be placed upon bleeding-edge expansion.  But I am somewhat experienced in smoothing out bumps for noobs... because... I'm still one of them, and some of the bumps are in my recent memory. 

All in all, I really avoid saying "its not my job".  I don't like that hand-washing statement AT ALL.  *shrug*  Party on!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

 All in all, I really avoid saying "its not my job".  I don't like that hand-washing statement AT ALL.  *shrug*  Party on!

But wingnut it's not your job to be the idiot whisperer...

and as a matter of tact you have tons of it in comparison to guys like me, people listen to you.  I have to hit people with a stick and show them something dirty to get them to even look over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dad72 said:

The best documentation system I know is PHP. There are "all" on one page: function, examples, member contributions and comments.

This doc is really easy and accessible even to the noobs.

http://php.net/manual/en/function.array-merge.php

Second that.
Another good example is Typescript: https://www.typescriptlang.org/docs/tutorial.html

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven’t visited the forum for a week or so and decided to catch up with the latest posts while enjoying a coffee and large bowl of Kelloggs for breakfast.

Reading this thread is fascinating. It’s a bit like watching children in the school playground squabbling over how fast and round the ball is and who is contributing to making it even rounder and faster. Interestingly. there is no arguing about whose ball it is – clearly all the kids see it belonging to the community and each cares about making it better for the good of all.

It made me smile and then somewhat perplexed.

Allow me please, to put my 2 cents worth into it and to give a perspective as to where I am in my Babylon journey and why I am starting to question whether I should be travelling along this road at all.

I am a 64 year old retiree looking to spend my time not festering into senior years but keep body mind and soul active and alert in an attempt to stave off the inevitable.  I have run a successful business in my time and while having had almost no exposure to 3D, graphics or script writing am no numbty and quite capable of assimilating new skills and learning. I have a new small business interest that is in the early stage of development and I can see how the global move to all things 3D could be of enormous benefit to that business and hence diving headfirst into to Blender/Babylon will fulfil many of the aforementioned objectives I have set myself.

So my take on Babylon so far ………………..

I am truly in awe of those who seem to pour all of their precious time and energy into it’s development. I am amazed at what is achieved by dedication and vision. I am inspired by the commitment others make to it’s development and those who diligently scan the forum offering help and guidance to those, like me, with questions and queries.

There are of course, a range of competencies of the various users but I suspect this forum is initially used by newbies like me, primarily as a source of demystifying the fog of ignorance and to lay out bit by bit the path of their development.

@Deltakosh and @davrous – keep developing away at whatever pace you deem necessary to keep the product at the forefront of the 3D world. I’m sure everyone admires the initial vision you had for Babylon but also your continued dedication and passion for it’s future. Even after all these years and undoubtedly the trials and tribulations, problems and setbacks you have endured along the way your passion is truly inspiring.  

To everyone else that so willingly contribute to both it’s development and to this forum - thank you. Each contributor to this thread obviously cares about Babylon and it’s future.

So as a newbie BOTH to Babylon and Javascript and 3D modelling in general ……………………….   

@Wingnut – Babylon IS NOT scary but it is very very frustrating, and for me the Achilles Heal is Documentation / Tutorials that are so inadequate for the newbie. I also see that the innovative Playground could be better used as a teaching aid.

I won’t attempt to create a long list of what I personally feel are it’s weaknesses here and now – perhaps something for another time.  I have a little time on my hands, so would be very happy to play a part in any future project to improve and expand both documentation and tutorials, not of course from a technical angle - I simply don’t have the expertise - but more guiding the writers to simplify and expand on explanation from a newbies viewpoint.

Richard C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a great post, RC.  Babylon is not scary TO YOU, correct?  But you might have more confidence in battling "big things" than others.  I am age 59 myself, and perhaps we are not scared of big things... because of our experience in dealing with OTHER big things that have bumped into us.  The youngsters don't have that "how to deal with big things" experience... which means we have to "make it fun".  We want to take away the "this is too big for me to ever learn" fear, IF some of that happens.

(actually, I'm still scared of big things)  :o

If a new user "throws in the towel" (says "to hell with THIS mess"), we might not just lose him/her from BJS-land, but from ALL webGL, and from all Geometry learning, and from all JS learning, not to mention missing some collaboration/teaming opportuna-casseroles.  

On that same subject... could you venture a guess as to WHAT PERCENTAGE of your BJS frustrations... were caused by lack of geometry terminology, lack of openGL experience, lack of Math expertise, lack of JS expertise, etc.  In other words... how much should be taught in the docs?  Should we try to provide schooling in those "ancillary" systems?  Is it our job?  Do we care if something is our job or not?  *shrug*

That's what some of these other guys are saying.  It's not all BJS's fault or duty.  It's almost like we need "BJS Suburbs"... a pile of websites for teaching the 'ancillary' things that every good BJS pilot should know.  My friends here in this thread... reminded me that... the ancillary things DO exist, and they are not part of BJS, but they still DO contribute to "overwhelm". 

They are right.  And even if we DID try to make a doc... that covered every forum question ever asked (FAQ from hell)... could DK, and all the other forum custodians... be able to point users to those answers.... quickly and easily?  I'm not sure.  I'm investigating dynamic diagrams right now... a playground-based learning aid.  I might look into "browse BJS docs site in the PG lower half-screen", soon, too.  Stuff.  Thinkin' 'bout stuff.  :)

I can say one thing for sure.  You're pretty well liked around here, RC, and your attitude and energy is excellent!  Don't change a thing about yourself, and don't ever leave, okay?  :)  That goes for everyone here, too.  We have an eclectic mix of personalities and idea-people around here... that is just fantastic.  I love all of us, and I learn from everyone.  Pretty cool disorganized org, eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Wingnut - If the world needed an example of the phrase 'Champion of a cause' you would certainly be it. You ouse enthusiasm for all that Babylon can offer and I applaud you for it. You have a strong drive for learning but for me, so far, the current documentation and tutorials simply have not aided my learning and progression. The fact is, I am sticking with Babylon in spite of the poor documentation not because of it as I get the impression that Babylon is the best of its kind.

You see, I don't feel a need to know or understand how Babylon works - that does not turn me on as it does others - frankly I don't care one jot how it works. When I get into my car to drive to a new place, I want to know the route, the quickest or prettiest way to get there and why I am going there - what the car has to do to get me there and the expertise that has designed and created it is of no interest to me what so ever. As a stupidly simple example, if I need to turn left, then I should know why and how I should do it. I do not need to know how the car is going to do it.

Babylon per se doesn't scare me - but giving up on the learning for the wrong reasons does. I am scared I shall get so frustrated that I will give up on it and that has nothing to do with age or experience. I suspect that there are very many 'youngsters' who have the attributes and drive or even necessity to get more from the existing documentation than us particularly as they are far more adapt at trolling all the forms of available social media than I ever have a desire or patience to. 

2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

On that same subject... could you venture a guess as to WHAT PERCENTAGE of your BJS frustrations... were caused by lack of geometry terminology, lack of openGL experience, lack of Math expertise, lack of JS expertise, etc.

A huge proportion of my frustration is not because of a lack of knowledge of all of those things but more that I will need to know about those things but only BECAUSE the documentation doesn't tell me how to do something.

So in summary, let's leave the knowledge behind how the clever people make Babylon work and concentrate on telling newbies, like me. through good documentation and tutorials how to do things with the odd bit of why when it may be necessary to aid the learning.

I think you are on absolutely the right course when you say you want to develop 'BJS Suberbs', links to good ancillary sites, schematic diagrams etc and especially Playground based learning.

Far too much work for one man Wingy, perhaps a sub committee of volunteers would be a good approach. Spread the load as it were. I would be happy to contribute in that cause for sure.

Over to others to comment perhaps........................................?

Richard C

   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the "just using it" layer of BJS, too.  ADORE it!  I have made plenty of demented little toys... little effects... little torturing of this wonderful programmable 3d etch-o-sketch.

I do plenty of "screwing off" with BJS.  It distracts me from getting my self-assigned duties done... very often.  :) 

thx agn for the petting.  I don't belong quite as high on a pedestal as you have me painted... but... very kind... very kind indeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Wingnut said:

If a new user "throws in the towel" (says "to hell with THIS mess"), we might not just lose him/her from BJS-land, but from ALL webGL, and from all Geometry learning, and from all JS learning, not to mention missing some collaboration/teaming opportuna-casseroles.  

On that same subject... could you venture a guess as to WHAT PERCENTAGE of your BJS frustrations... were caused by lack of geometry terminology, lack of openGL experience, lack of Math expertise, lack of JS expertise, etc.  In other words... how much should be taught in the docs?  Should we try to provide schooling in those "ancillary" systems?  Is it our job?  Do we care if something is our job or not?  *shrug*

Well said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Wingnut said:

WHAT PERCENTAGE of your BJS frustrations... were caused by lack of geometry terminology, lack of openGL experience, lack of Math expertise, lack of JS expertise, etc

@Wingnut : I think the "etc" is important. The Babylonjs webpage describes BJS as " A complete JavaScript framework for building 3D games with HTML5, WebGL and Web Audio " - to me that immediately says "teamwork". And teamwork  includes not just coders but graphic artists (2D and 3D), musicians and story writers. Add to that the target for a game - mobile -> XBox/PC, and then, as you and @Richard C mention the question of age (with perhaps different learning styles). Perhaps,  someone coming new to BJS sees the potential for BJS not as building a 3D game but as a method of creating an attractive commercial website ( @ozRocker?)

Can tutorials on BJS talk to all these people, working as individuals, and should they? As someone coming from a Blender background, I don't think BJS should be trying to tell me how to use Blender - there are thousands of video tutorials on YouTube. Maybe new users expect instant success - without putting in some learning time?

There are a few examples of collaboration and teamwork that I can think of - the "Sponza Demo" and the collaboration between @dbawel and @Pryme8 - but not many.

As for the adequacy of what tutorials are available, as I said in my first post on this thread, the one on @jerome's SPS system I found very good, but for using RAY - MIA :(. (As soon as I see the word "matrix" in someone's code, the fear level rises ;)).

Anyway, enough of gryff's rambling - life will change in "gryffbekistan" over the next two weeks - and I have to go play with guitar frets :)

cheers, gryff :)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, gryff said:

I don't think BJS should be trying to tell me how to use Blender

Hi G-man!  Umm... I think BJS should "offer" Blender information... when it involves the reasons that imports from Blender... do unexpected things in BJS.  (Common Blender importing issues).

12 hours ago, ozRocker said:

Are people expecting to learn a powerful framework in a day?

Hi Oz!   Answer:  maybe.  :)

But we don't want them saying "uh, no thank you" on the first day, or 10th day, or ever. 

People have varying amounts of time... to work-on/play-with things.  IF that thing has a high-enjoyment factor, then more time is allocated, and that time is cherished and sought.  Fun work.

If that "time" has only difficult reading and repeated coding snags... well, you know.  It's a grind.   Yes, they are expecting a decent scene and basic framework understanding... in a day.  :)

VERY basic understanding... esp if no openGL, math, or js background.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Hi G-man!  Umm... I think BJS should "offer" Blender information... when it involves the reasons that imports from Blender... do unexpected things in BJS.  (Common Blender importing issues).

Hi Oz!   Answer:  maybe.  :)

But we don't want them saying "uh, no thank you" on the first day, or 10th day, or ever. 

People have varying amounts of time... to work-on/play-with things.  IF that thing has a high-enjoyment factor, then more time is allocated, and that time is cherished and sought.  Fun work.

If that "time" has only difficult reading and repeated coding snags... well, you know.  It's a grind.   Yes, they are expecting a decent scene and basic framework understanding... in a day.  :)

VERY basic understanding... esp if no openGL, math, or js background.

Isn't there a simplified version somewhere?  I remember a post about this extension that allows you to use Babylon.js functions in an XML structure.  That looked like something that would be great for an absolute beginner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Wingnut here is a person BJS might lose, BangTao. (S)he is having difficulties with BJS and I have tried to help (her)him to the best of my ability but am failing. It might just be a language barrier but the questions keep coming and for me I do not have sufficient understanding of what (s)he wants. Perhaps you might have more success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JohnK, you're just the best.  Humility (willing to admit possible failings)... and caring about every user... that's what it's all about.  Calling all forum helpers... we have a challenge.  :)

Jerome has been warming-up in the bullpen, and I've done a little relief pitching, too.  Head over to the bench, JK... and get a gulp of Koolaid and a handful of tater chips... wipe off some sweat. 

I think we have some Chinese-speaking BJS experts nearby.  Perhaps they can visit our dugout, too.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a very interesting discussion, but since I wasn't around when it started (and I am terribly sorry for reviving it) I am not in place to actually answer it,

Having said that - to be able to edit the documentation is not even to know git. it is to have a github account and use their online editor. This is more than enough. To edit a page :

1) log in to github 

2) choose the page you want to edit (which can be searched for in github's search)

3) edit the page and press "propose change"

4) ???

5) PR Merged, profit!

Github has an online editor, github handles merges, branches, and all that fun. It even shows you a preview of your changes! Other than live wiki editing (which won't be integrated any time soon), I don't see how it can be simpler.

So, what are you waiting for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, this is a very interesting thread to read.

About Blender - since Babylon seems to be VERY connected to blender, having these tutorials makes sense. Ik it's not required to use blender, but since we have like 2 exporters that have a lot of work on them, this seems like by far the most popular and easy to use choice.

Babylon is also a somewhat low level engine. It's not Unreal Engine, and it's not raw webGL - it's something in between. Thus, it makes sense that using this beyond the super simple uses will eventually require understanding of basic webGL, matrix, etc. It's just how Babylon is built. And that's not bad, it just is what it is.

I personally believe Babylon should steer towards more helper functions, such as "attachToBone" (which has now been implemented I think). This starts to allow basic users to use complex features. 

However, I know that's not how Babylon, and WebGL, works. WebGL get's most of it's excitement from epic demos, beautiful tests. It's what shows up in articles, and what people notice. Thus, the fact that many features implemented in Babylon is best used in demos makes a LOT of sense. I personally believe in making games, REAL games, but I know that most of the community doesn't seem to be on the same track. Which is absolutely fine! That's how community works!

In short, features are added by people who want those features. If someone believes a fancy effect should be added, they add it. Since a lot of the community likes effects and fancy features, those features gets added. Once again, not bad in the slightest - since "bad" features is decided relatively.

I personally like helper functions and base features (such as a simple physics engine), so it is my job to implement that, no one elses. That's how this community works. Sadly I don't know how to do that, but since no one else wants it, it doesn't get implemented. Thus, it's not their fault its not here, its mine.

I hope this makes sense. Basically, the community itself chooses the direction we go. Individuals can implement features as they want, but if you look at it as a whole, you will see the footprint of the Babylon.js community as a whole.

 

We are different from a lot of other forums. We see a problem, we find a solution, and we share it. Babylon isn't too big for the past 11th-grade-me to implement features back in the day. And that's beautiful. 

Love Ya'll <3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hiya Josh!  Well said, thanks for your input.

There IS a "bad" that COULD be applied, here.  It COULD be deemed "bad" when advanced features are being "pursued"... when the basics are not yet covered.  For example, we are yet to have a full-blown tutorial on dynamicTextures... one that teaches advanced drawText operations, and about DT's relationship with W3C context2d, toDataUrl(), imagebuffers, etc.

This is just one "hole" in our coverage of "the basics".  There are many more.  Just look at the forum questions (about basic things) that are NOT covered by any tutorials, diagrams, or official "teaching playgrounds" that can be found/reffed easily.  SOME might say that it is "bad" to paint the car... when the engine doesn't run well.  Priorities, ya know?  In order to "feel" this feeling, I think you have to work the "dailies"... answer the repeated questions... and look for answers.  There's good reason why some of Wingnut's forum replies are fat and hand-holdy.  It is because they are the ONLY tutorial ever written on some of these basic subjects.

Nobody likes to use the word "bad".  It hurts people's feelings or angers, sometimes.  But... I am still going to hold my ground, and say it is bad to work on advanced things... when the basics still generate MANY forum questions.  And maybe it's not so much that things aren't covered by tutorials and playgrounds, but it's not always easy to find them. 

I think a HUGE step would be... getting our playground searcher to work better... allowing periods, underscores, and returning something OTHER THAN "1000 hits".  A return of 1000 hits... happens for very successful returns... AND failed (lack of specificity) returns.  If we can get more power at the playground searcher... MY forum-helping would get 20% more efficient, and I think... so would others' PG searches. 

What's our priorities?  Do we want to try to establish some?  Will we get a consensus?  Work the dailies... the daily forum questions... for 3 months.  You'll find the holes in our "basics".  If you don't work the dailies, you'll believe everything is fine and nothing is bad.  *shrug*  Just my opinion... based upon some seen and experienced things.  I'm not "making them up".  But... what is "our job" and "not our job" rears its ugly head quite regularly... during these talks.  Everyone has a varying opinions on THAT, too.

I guess it's all part of the fun of participating in a "commune-ity"  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree. I didn't want to offend anyone, or alienate them by their beliefs on what is important for this engine. But in the end, I  think some priorities should be established. Of course if someone doesn't want to follow these, that's absolutely fine - but some sort of idea of where we're going for should be figured out.

One thing I noticed with Three.js compared to Babylon is the sheer number of easily accessed examples. Simply pop over to https://threejs.org/examples/ to see what I mean. Meanwhile, Babylon has an amazing playground system with thousands of examples... but they are hidden away in tutorials and docs. We do have 22 examples in the playground, but there are so much more hidden away.

This is easily fixed: add the already existing playground examples and add them to the list. Which means we'll probably have to suffice for a different look to the list. (Having 300 examples in that little dialog box would look funky)

And having a better search engine would be absolutely fantastic as well! Sounds like a dream!

 

And for the priority? I personally see Babylon as a more game-focused engine, at least compared to Three.JS. I don't want to separate us from people who want to make those beautiful visualizations, but if we started focusing on making the engine even more game-focused, I believe it would still contribute heavily to those type of users as well. 

 

Everyone has different priorities. Thus, the priority needs to be somewhat vague, to allow our priorities to still connect to the group-wide vision.

Oh and I still want to work on a lightweight collision system, but not good at physics or math. If anyone wants to contribute, please contact me I need help ;_; I think adding this system will be a big step to allow actual games to be made in Babylon... an actual fps-styled product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...