mazoku

Current state of the market

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Just wonder what is the current state of html5 market? I think there are too few sponsors and most of them are closing. The games on the big distrubutors and sponsors are way too money centered with too many ads so players are less and less. What do you think?

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I think there are too few sponsors and most of them are closing.

This is simply untrue. You shouldn't spread fake information like this.

Are you basing this opinion on your own inability to make sales? Because I see that a lot in threads like this. I would say there have been "too few sponsors" for years, but there are still many developers that are doing well in the market.

The current state of the HTML5 games market is that there is more competition than ever, but the tech is in a great place and the future is looking bright.

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35 minutes ago, True Valhalla said:

This is simply untrue.

Please can you name more than half a dozen active sponsors who regularly and consistently purchase non-exclusive licenses?  The list you provide on your blog (behind an email signup, or element delete) reveals most are obsolete or not worth trading with (in your opinion).

14 hours ago, mazoku said:

The games on the big distrubutors and sponsors are way too money centered with too many ads so players are less and less. What do you think?

I think I'd agree.  Too many irrelevant ads too soon, creating delay and frustration, destroying the fun and with it the potential to grow a discerning audience craving more.  Audiences have been conditioned to lose sight of the value of their own time, to tolerate relentless haphazard-programmatic ads rather than pay a quarter to play a game.  Everyone loses.

 

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6 hours ago, b10b said:

 

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This is simply untrue.

Please can you name more than half a dozen active sponsors who regularly and consistently purchase non-exclusive licenses?

He said "most of them are closing" and that's what I said was untrue. Don't take my comments out of context.

I said myself that I agree there are too few sponsors.

6 hours ago, b10b said:

The list you provide on your blog reveals most are obsolete or not worth trading with (in your opinion).

Not true either. 12 out of the 23 active sponsors in my List of HTML5 Game Publishers & Sponsors are rated 3 stars or better, so most (52%) are valid sponsors that developers could approach. I provide plenty of information about which publishers to avoid too, so that developers don't get into business with the wrong companies.

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6 hours ago, True Valhalla said:

I said myself that I agree there are too few sponsors.

If we agree that there is little non-exclusive sponsorship market, perhaps we can also agree that devs wishing to Make Money With HTML5 should be skeptical of click-bait to the contrary?

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48 minutes ago, b10b said:

If we agree that there is little non-exclusive sponsorship market, perhaps we can also agree that devs wishing to Make Money With HTML5 should be skeptical of click-bait to the contrary?

Again, not what I said. In fact I said many developers have been doing well despite the limited number of sponsors. Learn to read? At least provide something of value to this thread beyond passive aggressive troll comments.

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Just now, True Valhalla said:

Learn to read?

I am trying, sorry if you are offended.  There are "too few sponsors" but also enough to support "plenty of developers"?  My reading skills suggest this might be a contradiction.

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6 minutes ago, b10b said:

I am trying, sorry if you are offended.  There are "too few sponsors" but also enough to support "plenty of developers"?  My reading skills suggest this might be a contradiction.

It's almost like a couple dozen multi-million dollar companies can still support a small niche industry of developers who are happy with a few hundred bucks per game license.

Isn't that clearly the point I have been making since my first post in this thread?

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I have bad experience with one of those rated 5 stars sponsors. And I don't think they have many players. All of the web players prefer old flash games as they have less advertising. 

There is no html5 games niche at all. Those multi-million dollar companies are actually struggling to sustain theirselves. (Just an observation)

Even that only two people are responding to my thread is a response by itself :(

(And you can't have ads each level, ads at the beginning, ads each 2 minutes and even more video ads that are unscipable. No one will play this)

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I think the problem with threads like this is that everyone tends to refer to their own personal experience which (usually) cannot be extrapolated to the "general" HTML5 game developer. 

I think there would be fewer disagreements on this thread if everyone prefixed their sentences with "In my personal experience...".

@True Valhalla has been making games for years and I've seen him active on the Gamemaker forum in threads that would affect his games (presumably) because it would affect his bottom line (primarily when an iOS upgrade breaks how Gamemaker works) and has a reputation that proceeds him and I believe doesn't have any reason to mislead anyone.

@b10b games are some of the most polished games available. To be honest, with the quality of games he's making I'm surprised he's concerned about the state of the market. Although neither of you have said "it's harder to sell games".

I suspect both developers experience doesn't tally with other HTML5 developers, it certainly doesn't with mine - I've been making HTML5 games for just under a year, made 2 games, positive feedback but no sales, I'll keep trying though! But that doesn't invalidate what he's saying.

I think without someone creating an anonymous survey to all members in this forum to ask users things like years of experience, games published, average income earned, full time/ amateur, etc. Questions like this will forever be dominated by personal experience which isn't the most impartial judge.

Just a thought!

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In my experience, both @True Valhalla and @b10b are right. There are many sponsors that aren't closing down and you can approach. Very few of them would be interested in a non-exclusive license, though. And many developers can do well, if they work hard and smart and a couple of hundred dollars a month is all they want :)

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The majority of sponsors I've made contact with are only interested in non-exclusive $200-500 licenses. While we were contracting the money was great, but now that client doesn't want anything any more, there's no point for me to continue with HTML5.

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I get the feeling from this discussion that although the html5 market it's smaller it's still profitable enough to keep on making html5 games. 

The interesting question would be IMO "considering the current course of events will it still be worthwhile financially to make html5 games in the close future - 1-3 years?". or "will my html5 game developing knowledge/experience will be obsolete/useless in the close future?" 

My personal opinion is that getting money from sponsorship it's just going to get harder and harder as sponsors disappear from the market and the competition grows. Unless something like the "diablo rpg rebirth" happens (for html5 games) in which case demand will grow and sponsors will follow. 

 

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44 minutes ago, scheffgames said:

"considering the current course of events will it still be worthwhile financially to make html5 games in the close future - 1-3 years?". or "will my html5 game developing knowledge/experience will be obsolete/useless in the close future?"

If sponsorship is a micro-niche that generates small value then where might bigger value exist?  Gambling, social, adult, advertising - these are the areas web-interactive growth has historically occurred.  I think there's evidence it exists for HTML5 today (via trend analysis, user habits, job postings), but that's arguably a far cry from making games in a purest sense.  Bets could also be made on emerging gaming trends like .IO or IM games.  Alternatively HTML5 gamedev skills are highly transferable to SPAs or UXD.  Whatever the choice, there's a fair amount of insurance in the technology stack.

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@True Valhalla, wow you've been busy with retrospective editing of your posts!  It is appropriate to wish to correct your originally bullish remarks, but less appropriate to use such corrections to call others names or to promote profiteering click-bait?  Suggestion: mark future edits with the word "edit", "addition" or "clarification".  For the record I do not think it is appropriate for this forum (which attracts a larger number of newcomer developers) to promote false promises targeted specifically at them.

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3 hours ago, b10b said:

Bets could also be made on emerging gaming trends like .IO or IM games.  Alternatively HTML5 gamedev skills are highly transferable to SPAs or UXD.

Very interesting. Actually I was approached by a client for a SPA and UXD (I had to google the terms beforehand, thank you very much :D) so I guess you might be right - although the UXD offer was heavily inluenced by my previous graphic and ui design work - some of which was unrelated with gaming.

.IO and IM games are a very interesting market but they do require solid multiplayer programming knowledge methinks. 

Code Canyon might be another way of gaining some green though I have no experience with them and I don't know if the effort involved will produce any results.

On 4/30/2017 at 11:52 AM, mazoku said:

There is no html5 games niche at all. Those multi-million dollar companies are actually struggling to sustain theirselves. (Just an observation)

Actually @True Valhalla is right - there's been a niche since the advent of the html5 technology. Even if  it's not going so well with it doesn't change the fact that it exists and it will do so until it will be vastly overshadowed by other similar tech - like WebGL for example. Also the niche it's not limited to sponsors - like @b10b said there's also plenty of unexplored opportunities.

[edit] - my bad, actually WebGL it's also html5 tech. Still, as far as I know there's nothing serious out there to dethrone html5.

On 4/30/2017 at 7:25 AM, b10b said:

If we agree that there is little non-exclusive sponsorship market, perhaps we can also agree that devs wishing to Make Money With HTML5 should be skeptical of click-bait to the contrary?

Well, TV makes it look easy I think and it's transparent about the whole process. But the truth is that it's damn hard to make money selling html5 games to sponsors, even for people with previous programming and graphic experience. 

And for the folks just starting in this whole game dev business, being successful in the html5 niche will be so much harder. 

But it's an interesting gaming niche to be part of and as long as one doesn't quit too early there's lots of things to learn regarding UX/gamedesign and some financial opportunities - although those come quite late in the whole process.

Edited by scheffgames

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7 hours ago, b10b said:

@True Valhalla, wow you've been busy with retrospective editing of your posts!  It is appropriate to wish to correct your originally bullish remarks, but less appropriate to use such corrections to call others names or to promote profiteering click-bait?  Suggestion: mark future edits with the word "edit", "addition" or "clarification".  For the record I do not think it is appropriate for this forum (which attracts a larger number of newcomer developers) to promote false promises targeted specifically at them.

What are you even talking about? I added two sentences to my earlier post, to address the other lie you made in this thread (you brought up my list of sponsors, not me). I have not called anyone in this thread names - are you just a pathological liar or what..? Stop harassing me.

I don't have time for your type of crazy.

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3 hours ago, True Valhalla said:

I don't have time for your type of crazy.

exactly that. just have one single conversation without being rude, offended or harassing people.

take your own advice.

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2 hours ago, Daikrys said:

exactly that. just have one single conversation without being rude, offended or harassing people.

take your own advice.

  • This thread started with a blatantly false statement that "most sponsors are closing".
  • Then when I call out that bullshit, my sponsor list is called obsolete and my book is called clickbait (I hadn't even mentioned either of these). I worked very hard to compile both of these resources.
  • Then I'm accused of calling people names (you're looking at the thread, tell me where). That's blatantly false too. I will always defend my reputation when I'm falsely accused of something.

And you're telling me not to be offended?

You may not like the tone of my posts but I'm not spreading fake news, making up bullshit, or attacking people's games, products, or reputation. When I see that type of behavior I'll respond however the hell I want.

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10 hours ago, scheffgames said:

my bad, actually WebGL it's also html5 tech. Still, as far as I know there's nothing serious out there to dethrone html5.

This is because JS won the browser language war, Flash has run its course, there is nothing to challenge html5, but... if you're making casual games then you're up against the native marketplaces which are extremely strong and have many advantages that html5 devs don't, so, I think there needs to be a point where you really push what your platform is good at, what it is better at than other platforms.

I'm still surprised webGL stuff hasn't taken off more, I can only assume its through lack of developers who really know what they're doing in the graphics field getting on board with it. The browser has the exact same access to the GPU as any other application (albeit with a slightly older language implementation), loading of assets will always be difficult, but, beyond that you can create some stunning visuals that could rival some AAA games, with the advent of WASM you could even be pushing native applications for code performance too.

10 hours ago, scheffgames said:

Alternatively HTML5 gamedev skills are highly transferable to SPAs or UXD.

I couldn't agree more! It's a fantastic time to be a JS dev at the moment.

WebGL, WASM round the corner, more and more offline options becoming available for clients, node based services, JS looks like its winning IoT programming, tech like Electron throwing JS into desktop native solutions, real hybrid apps for mobile/desktop, new, more powerful language features, a reliable development roadmap for the language, the browser fragmentation problem disappearing.

These are all incredible things, I'm not sure there's ever been a better time to be a JS developer.

And all these things don't happen in isolation, the language/ecosystem is still growing at a meteoric rate because businesses and users demand more and more from it. JS dev work is booming. Tech moves very fast but its likely 10 years before you can finish using JS, and even then, if you learn programming then you'll find you can pick up many other languages (JS protects from a lot of programming concerns so be sure to be learning these as you go, stuff like how the JIT compiler works, memory management etc etc).

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10 minutes ago, mattstyles said:

I'm still surprised webGL stuff hasn't taken off more, I can only assume its through lack of developers who really know what they're doing in the graphics field getting on board with it.

I think WebGL uptake has been lacking for quite a few reasons, with one of them being that the browser adoption rate isn't 100%. I haven't seen any recent data on this but even when it was 80% I still wasn't comfortable losing 1 in 5 players. That would have been almost 10,000,000 players for me.

I'm only just now planning to use WebGL in a project for the first time in over 5 years of making HTML5 games. It feels like the time is right for WebGL.

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