Do I have to leave babylon?

[jellix]

Hi folks,

some words at the beginning: I love the babylon framework (have built two customer-projects sucessfully with it) and I like this forum a lot (you are all very nice and talented guys!). The playground is great and the TypeScript-functionallity also.

I came from Threejs and I don't want to switch back, but due to the current request of our customers I have to think about it. Maybe you could convice myself to keep working with babylon.

Here I give some reasons why I think that I have to change:

1. 3D-file formats: As a 3D artist I am working with Cinema4D (wich is kind of indstry-standard in Germany). There is no exporter for c4d So I have to export my meshes as OBJ-files. These are not smoothed but only flat shaded within babylon. Unfortunately Babylon is not able to load other file formats like FBX, DAE (Collada). That is a very big thing for me. I don't want to use any other 3D-tool like blender or 3ds-max just to convert my meshes into the babylon fileformat. Three is able to load collaa-files so I can directly use my meshes from c4d in Three. A related topic is this one (not solved yet):

2. Documentation: Well, there is a documentation to the Babylon Classes but many of the Class-descriptions are not complete. Example: http://doc.babylonjs.com/classes/2.4/VRCameraMetrics There ary some examples and I get some answers in this forum if I want to know anything (about CameraMetrics for example), but that seems to be kind of "in progress".

3. Development-speed: The reason why I changed to babylon was that I read that the babylon framework was created of some guys of microsoft. So I thought that there is a (big) team that is well payed to develop that technology very fast and professional. It is developed professional (except the docu :-)) but for me it looks like @Deltakosh is a main developer and some other community-members like @RaananW are doing further developments. I'm sorry to say that but I thnik that even Three is sometime a step ahead. So there I can already use THC Vive controllers. And then there is suddenly a framework https://aframe.io/ that is also great and easy to use. It's made by the mozilla-company, it's easy to use and it's ... build on Three.js ...

Result: As I currently compare some technologies it seems like I will HAVE TO switch the framework. I will reliquish the typeScript-Feature and I won't have a playground anymore. But the advantages on the other side are big for my needs.

I write this thread because it's propably helpful for you to understand my descision. Maybe you can even tell me about solutions that keep me stay at babylon :-) I'm always open for it and of course I will always have a look at future developments but for now (at least for the next two days) I have to touch the other opportunities (... aframe and Three).

Sorry for that guys. I even don't want to go that step ...

[Kesshi]

Compared to BabylonJs, ThreeJs is the older framework. That means it is well known and a lot of people use it. That also means more people are contributing. If you like BabylonJs and would like to use it, you could also help to make it a better framework.
If you think there is a feature missing, you could try to implement it yourself. Features do not exist by default
For example it shouldn't be to difficult to port the FBX or DAE loader from ThreeJs to BabylonJs.

[jellix]

Hi @Kesshi

you are absolutely right!

This is also my oppinion. But in the business "time is money" and I have to deliver results ... So unfortunately I don't have enough time to develop the needed extension by myself. And I have to admit that I also don't have the best skills for that (yet) and so I am more the "consumer" who has to USE the technology instead of CREATING it. That may look like I'm just a sponger, but due to the business I have to act like that, and it's not that I should feel guilty for that :-)

Nevertheless, this is the reason why I have so much respect for all of you developers that are pushing the technology forward!

I am very thankful for that and I don't give any negative word to babylon. So my descision is also based just on the current situation. Maybe the next project will be a babylon project again (hope so).

[adam]

On 9/1/2016 at 7:53 AM, jellix said:

But in the business "time is money" and I have to deliver results

With the lack of Typescript and the lack of a forum like this, I think you are going to be losing a lot of money.

In business you should know your tools and your ability to use those tools before committing to a project.

[jellix]

Well ... I shoudn't have written this post ... so sorry if I bothered anybody of you.

*bye*

[adam]

5 hours ago, jellix said:

I have to export my meshes as OBJ-files. These are not smoothed but only flat shaded within babylon.

If you haven't given up yet, please create a PG to show us the issue.  Thanks

[adam]

These obj files don't load as flat shaded:

http://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#28YUR5#109

 

[Pryme8]

Obj files work. This is a reoccurring problem with all new users you need to recalculate your normals...  If I was not so busy I would just fix the obj importer to just do it... Also are you loading the obj with a mtl file? I belive mtl files are not importing 100% right on obj import so I have dropped all of them and just build my textures as bjs materials... Um do not give up I have used nearly every webgl library and this one is pretty much the bees knees unless you make your own....

[Pryme8]

I do feel your pain with using c4d in Babylon... but everything is still possible.  I have never once used blender for anything.

[max123]

@jellix,

1. Any reason you don't want to use Blender as a bridge to Babylon? That's what I used even when exporting for Three.js. Collada is an old and bloated format (~40% bigger than JSON) and Collada Improter for Three.js hasn't been updated in ages (AFAIK it's not even part of Three.js). 

2. I grew tired of the fact that Three.js JSON exporter for Blender screws up pretty much every setting in your scene (materials' properties, transformations, camera settings, lights). Babylon's Blender exporter is a LOT more consistent and the resulting Scene actually looks similar to what you see in your 3D package (well, mostly  ) I've used Lightwave, Cinema4d, Softimage|XSI, Blender - in that order. 

3. Issues reported on Three's github can take forever to resolve. I've posted 2 a few months ago, they're still there. Very frustrating.

 

Currently, I keep both Three and Babylon as part of my framework as both have their strengths and weaknesses. 

[jerome]

about your questionings ...

1. can't help, I don't know anything about exporters

2. Yep the class documentation is in progress and will become better and better. Many of 3JS classes miss documentation also, but I've to admit it is still for now a BJS little weakness. However, the forum is the right place to ask and to get quite quickly the answers you need. The PG is also the best way to have your concrete example fixed, tuned, tweaked by the pros  ... and, here again, with some great reactivity that you would hardly find somewhere else.

3. BJS was initially developped my MS guys... on their spare time. This is not a MS project (although MS uses it sometimes). Like 3JS ... 3JS is not a commercial project from any firm. As you could see on github, the number of active BJS contributors is quite decent. 

Sometimes BJS has a better or a newer feature that 3JS doesn't have, sometimes this is the contrary. If you honestly compare the cores, BJS has far more embbeded features than 3JS and focuses only on the WebGL renderer whereas 3JS has 4 renderers (canvas, webgl, css3, svg) for less global lines of code. Actually, with 3JS you will fast have to dig into the raw WebGL grease (shaders, calls, etc) because the provided abstraction layer is lighter than the BJS one.

About the support, this forum and this community are the big strength of BJS. People here love their framework and are really proud if it can be used for commercial projects. So users asking help for commercial projects are usually taken with care by the community and receive an attentive support. Ask some of them who already did this (commercial projects) : Temechon, Raanan, Iiceman, NasimiAsl, DBawel, Fenomas, etc ... I'm sure they will confirm.

Be aware also that Deltakosh and all the guys of the core team read all the forum posts everyday.. ALL POSTS E-VE-RY-DAY !

Could really you imagine that Mr Doob can read each stackoverflow 3JS post ? (stackoverflow is the "official" 3JS forum) 

Not sure that having a better class documentation is then the guarantee to gain some global time in your project, imho. Every argument is to be taken in account.

 

Good luck anyway 

[Nockawa]

Well, to be honest, it's hard for me to say if your post is either a rant or based on a right mindset.

BJS is an open source project, if you don't have what you want you can: A) do it yourself privately or better as a contribution, B ) walk away.

Contribution is about everything, documentation included, @jerome spends a big amount of his free time to document class of others for others. No project are perfect, open sources ones even less.

I share your point about documentation, I wish it could be better, that we could have a good reference documentation because this the way I use to work with, but as others already said, this lack is compensated by forum and a very active community.

If you want to leave TypeScript and go backward with a type less language, go for it...

At the end of the end you don't have to pay for bjs, and looks like you don't pay back by contributing to make it better, so I think people can live with the fact you walk away. And by the way: lack of time is the last excuse you can bring, I think I can speak on the behalf of everybody involved actively in bjs when I say: nobody has time and still we managed to make this project moving forward.

 

[NasimiAsl]

hi all

i work in Melyon.ir site and that is not Game or fun stuff . this is real business with full 3d Scene with shopping and 3d virtual city ..

so i say when we want start that 2 years ago we start research and find some good example from threejs

we try to make a dynamic  scene with that and we see this is not for business all sample have special purpose and optimized for just a little mesh

so we see  babylonjs and that not have a good sample in 2 years ago but have very managed structure and we see someone here care for clean and good source 

but after 2 years babylonjs have wonderful sample and a lot of new changes

and watch the others engine i just find some broken bridge between webgl and javascript function so

if i change your question  

What is best freamwork for Webgl ? my personal answer is BJS

but if i see your question my answer is

 you most first collect your all requirement about your project and ask how much babylon can do and how much other engine can help

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

when you see your project you most take desition 

 

[GameMonetize]

Jerome already say it but I want to clarify it once again.

Babylon.js is an Open Source project developed by enthusiasts ON THEIR BLOODY SPARE TIME. Which means we are doing that instead of playing World Of Warcraft (or having a life :)).

I started it during a rainy week end and then I dedicated all my free time to it. 

I read all posts and with the help of a brilliant community we manage to provide responses to all questions in less than 2 days (worst case scenario. Thanks to Wingnut most of the time :))

Contributors like @Nockawa, @RaananW or @jerome spent ages working on advanced features. FOR FREE. Because they are passionate and because they love sharing and help others (what a weird idea).

 

 

(Oh and by the way we support FBX: https://github.com/BabylonJS/Babylon.js/tree/master/Exporters/FBX)

[jellix]

Hi again!

Wonderful to see all the answers of you. I think I have to reply because otherwise my descion seems to be misunderstood. As I said (and I can't repeat it often enough): I have very big respect for all your work done to create such a great framework!!! Only because of the work of so talented guys like you, people like me can use this technology. The framework is very great and we all know that. Also the community and the playground are things that I won't find at Three or at a-frame.

But there is one thing that I would like to clear at this point: I don't want to feel sorry that I use Babylon without developing on it. I absolutely understand that you all built that thing upmin your free time just because you WANT it to build. For me it sounds like I'm not worth using babylon when I don't want to invest my free time to develop on it. This is not fair in my opinion.

My question was just if I have to change the framework to achieve special results like getting HTC Vive controllers or if you would say that it's also usable in Babylon. I don't know how to develop a plugin that recognized the data of the controllers (yet), and due to small timings, I had to find a solution for my customer. And even it sounds hard now: with a-frame I had build up a complete project within one day and I am sure that it would have taken several days longer by trying to develop the solution by myself. a-frame is nothing more than a framework based on Three, so it's not 'better than Three or even Babylon. In my case it just was faster to use and it just had features that I currently needed. The forum is really great and I know that many of you guys answer very quick and also very friendly. I like it a lot, but when it gets to a small deadline I have to look for ready-to-use technologies instead of asking for solutions. Please note that I really don't want to harm anybody here. I just try to explain why I had to descide myself. 

I also told about other problems that I have with Babylon and you already gave nice answers to that! Thanks a lot for it!

So here's my current thoughts: I HAVE TO use another framework due to the given timings of my customer. As I said I'm sure that it won't take long that I use Babylon again. And when I find free time, I really will try to develop something for the framework so that I don't have to feel bad anymore to use it :-)

[JCPalmer]

@jellix, stop digging.  Now you know not to title a topic like that again.  Stick to asking questions.  Anything remotely close to repercussions for the lack of a "feature" is sure to backfire.

[Wingnut]

I didn't see any digging.  I saw clarification.  I think Jellix is simply explaining why the situation is so urgent... and is trying to see if there are some quick solutions.  Time is not on the side of Jellix.  Jellix, you need to try to "loosen" your deadlines a bit, though.  You're going to have a heart attack. 

You are dealing with leading edge tech, trying to make it cross-browser and cross-platform.  These clients of yours... need to get a grasp.   It is always difficult to get a sure-aim on something that is moving at 100 kph/mph.    Did you make some unattainable promises? 

So, I will suggest that Jellix use whatever he can get his hands-on... that works.  We'll be here for your next project.  So will 3JS.  We're all in this webGL thing together... all the frameworks, all the brains, all the tools.  We sure won't delete your forum account just because you HAVE TO use another framework for certain projects.  You'll always be welcome here, and I can guarantee that folks here will be taking your concerns seriously and keeping them in their pockets... to possibly address sooner or later.

We're small, Jellix.  We have only a few core programmers and docs authors.  And guess what?   EACH of them is being hounded by deadlines, too - personal, corporate, monetary, you name it. There's only so much brain power to go around... and we all just do what we can... and try to smile about it at the end of the day.

Yeah, you walked in front of the "BJS Team Spirit" artillery cannon, a bit, J-dog, but we sure don't want to see YOU harmed, either.  Like JC said... it was the title of the post... which looked like an ultimatum or an attempt at a power-play/leveraging.  Perhaps we should all just get back on track, and see if we can pull-off a miracle solution... in 48 hours or less.  It's unlikely, but it's still a worthy challenge.  Play nice, everyone.  

PS: Who can afford a Vive?  I'd start tests immediately on Vive... if I had one... or two... or perhaps a 6-pack of 'em. 

[jellix]

Thank you @Wingnut for these motivating words!

I understood that I've taken a wrong title and I see my mistake. Won't do it anymore.

And instaed of creating another account to go through the community anonymously (what I shortly thought about) I will stand to my mistake ... So here we go!

You tought me to give more of my power to get the great project grow up a bit.

I will try to :-)

 

Thanks!

[fenomas]

There's a quote from Antoine du St. Exupery, along the lines of: "If you want people to build you a boat, don't order them to start cutting down trees -- instead, teach them to yearn for the endless mysteries of the sea."

When you have a problem, like an unfixed bug or a missing feature, the surest way to get help is to convince people it's an interesting problem to work on.  

[Flomotion]

On 1, September2016 at 10:26 AM, jellix said:

1. 3D-file formats: As a 3D artist I am working with Cinema4D (wich is kind of indstry-standard in Germany). There is no exporter for c4d So I have to export my meshes as OBJ-files.

I also work in Cinema4D. You can export to fbx and it will give you a .babylon file that supports (bones+weights) animations. The only thing that seems to go wrong is the materials. But you could set that up manually.

If you don't use animation in your files, you could export to collada and use Blender as an extra step in the export proces.

If you know anyone with 3DMax, you could send them a collada 1.4 (not 1.5) export. It supports everything (but groups need to be on rotation (0,0,0) or they will be wrongly rotated on export..). If you need really precise animation; export the fbx from max. The materials do work from this export and animation is more precise than the max exporter.

[jellix]

Thanks @Flomotion

The FBX-solution sounds good. Deltakosh also gave that hint. But because I have a question regarding to it I will create a thread to it (that interesting topic doesn't belong into this crappy thread :-)). 

[Pryme8]

This is not a crappy thread if you found awnsers 

[RaananW]

Quote

Do I have to leave babylon?

No.

[jerome]

"BabylonJS is the worst WebGL 3D framework, except for all the others"

Jerston Churchrome

[NasimiAsl]

and think why we r still in here wanna keep you in here 

i say if you start any project in webgl in 2016 - 2017 (maybe 2018) without others (like this comunity all perfesional in part of webgl system) you understand means of "  time is money "  .because   active comunity solve your problem  better than anyone .

and ask yourself who wanna help me without BJS ?  or witch comunity have someone like @Wingnut