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Bjs is moving fast


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Man I can not believe the rapid pace you guys are pushing changes to the engine, it's pretty impressive.

Im starting to feel like things are falling between the gaps now though, like if your not constantly just reading posts it seems a lot of things get missed.  I know the guys are constantly working on the documentation and things are always going to be changes, but I guess my point is BJS is starting to look scary from a outside perspective.


i tried to get my buddy set up over the phone and he's decent at computers but gave up really fast because it was just too much he felt like, and that was not the only person.  I'm not saying too much as in the learning curve actually I'm not too sure what put him off from it I'll have to ask.


but it made me think that if outsiders are thinking it's scary, and guys who are in the loop like myself are having trouble keeping up with what's really good or not with convention and logic structure that's best suited for the most recent version of Babylon.  Then maybe we as a community need to discuss how to present things differently or figure where the disconnect is happening?  

Or maybe I'm just out of the loop now? But really I honestly feel like we are losing continuity.

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This is unfair :)


  • We have dev channel where we develop openly. Openly means that you see all the updates, changes, discussions and so on. If this is scary, it is like a movie: don't watch :). But honestly, we (collectively) put a lot of energy to keep things compatibles. The code your wrote with bjs 1.4 should still work with 2.6-alpha. That's not nothing. We add features, because, well, this is a vibrant ecosystem. So I'm not sure what we should do then? Develop on our own and keep the community updated once in a while? Not adding new features?
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Things evolve AND keep stable : you get new features, improvements or optimizations at each release, but you can rely on a pretty stable existing API along the time. The breaking changes on the public API are really rare and you will ever find them quickly or some help about these in this forum.

As an experiment and comparison, please have a look at how many releases provide ThreeJS per year (month ?) and just check if you can run the same code with the version N and the version N-3 for instance. You'll probably get (bad) surprises ...

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I agree with above responses.  Be careful about wishing for stability.  CPM-86 is really, really, stable. (break out the 9" floppies!) .  We only need stable snapshots.

Being open, you do not know what someone might contribute (ignore fixes).  I do get a little lost as to what the specific objectives are being targeted for a particular release though.   It might be a good idea to having a topic at the beginning of work like "Known Contribution Plans for 2.6".  The core team as you call yourself could put out the first post.  Doesn't other stuff will not also get added.

A little torn about locking the topic.  It might be good to also have others post what they plan to add for a release.  I knew I was going to add multi platform compressed texture capabilities for a while.  Problem is it might turn into a confusing place for everyone to add their own wish list stuff.  Nothing wrong with that, but kind of defeats the purpose / clarity desired.  Maybe locking this topic, but make it part of an entire Development sub-forum.  If stray topics that no one is going to work on get added, or its just someone's problem, could get moved to Questions & Answers.

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I think maybe I worded this wrong, I think what I meant is that we are moving so fast it's hard to keep up I guess?  I don't know I do like yalls reponses though.


i was just sitting here waiting to set up my new office and was on my phone reading posts and had not had my morning coffee yet so it might not have been a full thought yet.

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Hi guys!  I have to agree with P8, a bit.  I'm not sure that any of the power coders... can "feel" BJS from an outsider newbie perspective, anymore.  Users get overwhelmed.  Diagrams would help.  I've been thinking about those.

It seems to me that the "big picture" is still difficult to visualize.  I think SOME of the newbie questions can be eliminated... with proper diagrams.  Diagrams are a maintenance hell.... when things are evolving.  But I must say... the new debug layer helps TONS!

I guess it starts with some BJS "flow" diagrams.  I have a dream... I hear a calling... I am SOMEHOW going to add a layer of super-friendly... to our docs.  I think @JohnK feels the same thing... and it is the reason he wrote his own help files.  He wanted to fill some holes, and did.  I want to continue his good work.  P8 too... adding to the basics tutorials... good.

Yep, we want to catch our new users on a flying carpet, headed for successful completion of their dreams.  Many times, they come to the forum asking "How big am I allowed to dream... with BJS?". 

The answer is "REAL BIG", but count-on some bleeding.  :D  Most of the bleeding is getting to know geometry terminology.  Is it our job to teach that?  Yes... even though it's not our job.  heh.  You guys all hand-held me down the trail, and still do.  I've had a VERY enjoyable trail to where I am today, but, I've been scared.  Trail bumps.  I think if we all keep trying to smooth-out the trail bumps, and keep showing-off our excellent playgrounds... they will come.  :)  It all starts with a spinning box, and if its chrome, all the better.  Puppy patience.  :D

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The thing is that I have no plan :D

I only try to have two releases per year but there is no REAL roadmap per se. I develop when I'm motivated by something:) For instance WebGl2 support. I found it motivating only recently (Dunno why). So it could be difficult for me to define a list. I'm like @JCPalmer with multi platform compressed texture, I have a mental list of things I would love to add but no real timeframe.

Most of the time, I find inspirations for new features in forum posts.

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Maybe we should make a development road map that shows the progression of the different leaves of the tree.  I mean it might not be that hard seeing how it's been on github the whole time and I could pull all the data I would need for it off that.  

Cause if we don't know where we are going at least we should have a map of where we have been?

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This is why we have the upcoming what's new: https://github.com/BabylonJS/Babylon.js/blob/master/dist/preview release/what's new.md


And we also kinda know where we are going: https://github.com/BabylonJS/Documentation/blob/master/content/generals/General/Roadmap.md (THIS IS FULLY EDITABLE BY EVERYONE)

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So far on this thread, posts by a lot of very very good coders - people I respect, and admire their coding skills :)

I, on the other hand  look at BJS from a different  perspective :unsure:. I started out almost 3 years ago looking at 3JS, BJS, Blend4Web and x3dom - to see where I might go from VRML. And BJS was my choice as it looked like there was good help if needed.

I look back at my first year - and BJS seemed to move at a steady speed. The last year, I agree with @Pryme8 - it seems to be moving very fast - but I don't think fast enough to put me off. And perhaps, most importantly, I can build with basically two tools - Blender and Notepad++  - which are both free :)

I have never thought to myself that I must know everything - and I sure as heck don't. :o Currently, I'm experimenting with @jerome's SPS and the "Ray" feature of BJS. The latter, in particular, I'm having trouble getting my head around - but I persevere by looking at PGs ( but a nice tutorial would be useful).

The way that BJS is developing, to me, seems to be very professional. Almost three years ago I published the "Blue Lady" - it used BJS 1.14(?) but today uses BJS 2.5 with no code changes. As DK and jerome put it:

2 hours ago, Deltakosh said:

put a lot of energy to keep things compatibles.


1 hour ago, jerome said:

just check if you can run the same code with the version N and the version N-3 for instance.

And that is important to me, and hopefully everyone. And I continue to be impressed with the development of the Blender Exporter  - also important to me. :)

Anyway, enough rambling from me for now ... but tell your fried Pryme that nothing worth doing involves no work :D

cheers, gryff :)

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@JCPalmer and @Wingnut 

I think there're things to considers about your feedback on more visibility/forecast and more documentation.

On one side you've got theory: what you know you should do to make things right and perfect, on the other side there's reality: for most people (if not everybody) it's a spare time project and we (sometime) don't want to do the painful stuffs because your pro job is also being a programmer and you have to do them (I hope ;) ) so we may get a bit loose on some things... So you can't judge/compare an OSS project like babylon.js to other big/more pro supported OSS ones.

IHMO, considering the facts: that it's only free contribution from people on their spare time, I think we did a pretty good job. We can always do better for sure, but still...

I've tried to bring more "planning"/forecasting internally in the team because I thought it would be a good thing, a first step and the second would have been to share it. It was my instinct because it's why I'd do in my daily job, but truth is it can't be run like that, because there are too many factors that will ruin your forecast and make things unpredictable.

For instance, because we spend time to support people in the forum, it's less time spent on coding. And I think we (the community) can be very proud about what we're doing on this matter: we help everybody, try to solve their issues and realize some wishes when it's possible, but it takes an unpredictable amount of time if you want to help everybody's request.

For instance I didn't plan to code Scale9Sprite, AtlasPicture support in Canvas2D, but when few people mentioned it I figure it would be good to do it. I couldn't I've planned this because I even didn't think/know about it in the first place. I also didn't know about Signed Distance Field for text rendering but when @davrous mentioned it I immediately thought it would be too cool to support that and I'm glad that we have a fast pace on this! :) But it took me one week to get it fully done... 

Truth is many (not to say most) features came to life from little unpredictable sparks: you can say we are very agile! :D 

When you add the fact that's many of us can't allocate a fix amount of time on this project, it's makes forecasting very difficult.

really understand the wish for everybody to have a better visibility of where things are going, but truth is we are almost all on the same level. I guess nobody have clear forecast of what they want to do on a monthly (even weekly) basis...


We could do better on the ref and overview doc, more PG, integrating unit tests and integration tests to avoid regression, but these things takes times, courage, discipline. I'm not judging, I'm just saying it's hard to be on the top for all these things when it's already not easy to do the vital stuffs (forum, fix bugs, dev new things).

But again, I think we're improving on this, when I started one year ago, Wingnut was mostly talking on the forum and now he contributes, help us making the link from newcomers and us, detecting regression/dead stuffs, it's really helpful and more people are doing that (@Nabroski for instance). I know you'd like more improvements on the user on boarding and the overall doc, but it's not easy and collective effort is needed I think.

So I'm a bit off topic about the initial post message, but I wanted to speak about these two topics, hoping it will clarify things (and not generate the opposite :) ).

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I don't understand why it's a problem to move fast as long as we're keeping compatibility. As @deltakosh said, we're pushing new features based on our motivation, the community feedbacks and want we think are strategic to keep Babylon.js attractive such as WebVR for instance.

I've been building Babylon.js with @deltakosh and there are plenty of stuff I don't know in the engine now like the SPS someone mentioned before. It's not a problem at all as it's being handled by someone I completely trust. 

The philosophy of Babylon.js we decided with @deltakosh was simplicity, compatibility and performance. I think Babylon.js is still the most simple WebGL framework to start with. We're providing a tons of useful services out of the box, well documented. We never broke compatibility and we've improved performance over time in each new version.

To my point of view, I would love to move even faster : fixing my Virtual Joystick stuff, improving the Web Audio engine, stabilizing WebVR, supporting HoloLens, etc.

I don't really get how moving fast is scary to people. I've even always seen the opposite as a MSFTee: people are scared when one of our dev sdk doesn't move fast enough.

At last, we never had that many developers & companies using Babylon.js which tends to indicate external viewers are not afraid by the way we're moving.


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Generally speaking, I think some of the overwhelm... comes from new things... arriving faster than can be "absorbed".

People get learning overflow.  They forget the little secrets.  They lose the precarious and loose "grip" that we once had ...on a simpler BJS.  They ALMOST had the turkey on their plate and ready to eat, when it jumped-off the plate and started running around in the barnyard again.  :)  Creeping featurism (continuously adding features) has good points, and bad ones.

What was a 400kb single-file include'n'go... turned into an 8 file porker (when extensions are on-board).   This... is scary... for those who fell in love with the 400kb single file gemstone that was given to them... to put into their pocket.  They/we cherished that precious little gemstone.

Then again, "scary" and "exciting" have been known to travel together.  What the heck... a little fear never hurt anyone... except that guy that shied-away from BJS.  :)  (text removed here - moved to new post)

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A bit more, if I may...

@davrous, to be blunt, if you can't see all the places where noobs are scared of BJS, then you have lost touch with those people, or never were in-touch with them.  How many posts do you see start with "Sorry if this is a dumb question..." or "I am really new to BJS..."?  Many, right?  These might not be indicators of "moving too fast" but... COULD be indicators of already MOVED too fast and too far, or maybe just...  "moved too abruptly".

When BJS pursues "toys" like VR and headgear, the direction of the framework is being steered by consumerism.  Drunken toy buying.  Come out and work "the dailies" on the Q&A forum, Dav.  Do it every day for 3 months.  You'll see scared.  You'll see overwhelm.  You'll see shying away-from Matrices.  You'll see bones and skeleton hell.  You'll see local/world transform fear (another subject @johnK tried to "soften").  You'll see Quaternion fears.  You'll see a weakness in understanding materials.  You'll see a fear of shaders.  You'll see a fear of labeling/mesh-interacting techniques. 

AND, you'll see the #1 fear of all BJS fears... "I'm not smart enough to ever understand/comprehend BJS".  Dav... 3/4 of your list of "I want to move faster"-subjects... are updating/improving OLD things (VJ's, webAudio, webVR - all old things that are about to change).  Those kinds of "moving faster" are EXACTLY what we need, imho.  Chasing yet another headset?  I dunno about that.  It seems we have better things to do.  (Repair/friendly-ify old trails, first).

A question arrives in our thoughts... right here.  What type of people do "we" want to attract-to BJS?  If BJS is for games, then yes, you'll want to contour it to consumer-junky toy-gulping gamer children... because... from a biz and herd-trend perspective... that's where the money is.  Which of you "founders" are currently consumer toy junkies and bleeding edge chasers?  Are some of "we" already programmed and assimilated into toy land, and the corporate policies that orbit that mentality?  For the forum helpers... are their 2 teams... Team Help-The-Kids  and Team Deep-Tech, and Deltakosh (and a few other big dogs) straddle the fence?  That what it seems like, to me... somewhat.

Let's ask @JohnK.  I think he teaches webGL to youngsters.  That guy probably knows noob fears better than any of us.  But I know quite a bit... from working the Q&A forums, too.  Yes, if you CHOOSE to blinder yourself to the noob fears, you won't see them, and then you won't know that SOME of them are caused by moving fast.  If you can't see them, then you aren't looking, or you are driving a different highway.

Come play in the mud with us, Dav.  Work the forum questions... the dailies.  Be there every day, 3 times a day.  Come meet the noobs, see things from their perspectives, and try to design THOROUGH posts that quench their fears.  I use comedy, fun metaphors, hand-holding without condescension.  See why I degrade myself so often?  (To take pressure off-of scared noobs.)  50% of my task as a forum helper, is to keep noobs from running away from BJS... out of fear.  That's what these "campfire gatherings" I speak-of... are all about.  Making sure new users know... that they have fallen into a giant group of friends who give a crap about them.

Come visit the trenches.  You'll have a wheelbarrow full of noob fears in no time, and some of those fears... are caused by BJS seeming overwhelming to them.  Care about them?  I do.  I would swim an ocean... to "be there" for a noob's "first-BJS-scene smile".  The first time a new user says "This... is SO cool!" 

Baby's first smile.... SO good.  Warms the cockles.  A little sprinkle of faerie dust falls on Deltakosh's head, every time, too. :)  Some kind of invisible wire hooked from BJS smiles... to a pink cloud that constantly hovers over DK's head.  heh

Here's an analogy of users like me... trying to "grab" BJS.  I see a pretty marble laying on the ground.  I reach for it with finger and thumb pinch, and JUST AS I GRAB IT... it turns into a tennis ball.  So I panic and adjust my hand to TWO fingers and a thumb.  I reach for the tennis ball, and it turns into a volleyball.  Now I need TWO hands to grab this... and as I reach for it, it turns into a giant pumpkin.  Does a fear of NEVER being able to "grab" this thing... happen here?  Yep.  :)  Classic known thing.  Learning is never finished (Is that fearful, too?  Yep.  heh.)  Party on.

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Hi @Wingnut the only people I teach these days is me. Got to keep the old brain ticking over. I still consider myself as a newbie as far as BJS is concerned. Some forum topics are way over my head. Some of these I ignore and some I read with interest.  Is BJS developing too fast for me to keep up with? sure is but to be honest I am not worried as I am not trying to keep up.

I am a newbie who goes from a background of programming and playing around with little projects that interest me. As 3D is of interest and BJS was simple to get started with and I got lots of help from the forum my interest continues. Having learned a little, the teacher in me thought I could help other people by trying to explain what I had learnt. As I learn new things I will try to add simple explanations in my guide so that newbies who come at BJS from the same sort of direction as me can perhaps get there quicker.

However not all newbies will be coming in this direction. Some are graphic designer types who want to extend into 3D from 2D, some are blender users who want to move into coding their characters and some from other directions. Will there ever be enough documentation to keep all these people happy? Probably not. Thankfully Wingnut has put helpful external links all in one place.

Perhaps what is needed is a what is your background what are you interested in type diagram and suggestions what to read. But as usual in open source projects who is going to do this? Active members are already active doing their active things.

So my advice to developers and contributers is to keep developing and my advice to newbies is to be clear what you want to achieve and the context you want to achieve it in and restrict yourself to that area. Ask clear questions on the forum and progress at a speed suitable to yourself.


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I find it is the forum that is difficult to follow, so much there is new topic and post by day. 

For the engine, I am see the latest version every day. I like the speed at which it evolves quickly. However, I find that the documents follow less the rhythm. There is a lot of new stuff that we do not see in the documentation, tutorials that may be in the process of being written. 

 In fact, the documentations are with the stable versions, but not for the current Beta versions of dev. If docs was also fast, it would be great, but I am aware that it takes a lot of work also.

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Isn't what the documentation is here for ? Seriously, there are definitely a lot of features, but you DON'T have to use them if you don't want to, or don't need to.
And the documentation website is very good at presenting content and easy to understand (just look at @jerome tutorial on Shapes : http://doc.babylonjs.com/tutorials/Parametric_Shapes). About Wingnut concerns on new comers, there ALWAYS will be some guy that find it faster to create a post in the forum and wait, than to read the documentation and actually work. Always. In any project.

So yes, it's moving fast, and it's GOOD, and you don't have to follow its pace if you don't want to.

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Right, but good/bad wasn't the issue.  Davrous claimed "I don't really get how moving fast is scary to people" and I showed him how it sometimes DOES lead to fears.  Not always, and it's not the only thing that does, but it is a factor.  (imho)

"there ALWAYS will be some guy that find it faster to create a post in the forum and wait, than to read the documentation and actually work."

And sometimes, they are short-on terminology experience, or lacking English reading skills, or 7 years old (all could use more diagrams?)  *shrug*  (Not sure, yet.)

How do we know who is who?

Pryme 8... Kiddy Corner is not just for kids.  It's for rescuing folks from "the biggest fear", too  ("this system is too complicated for me to ever learn").  I would really like to be there with a pile of "no it isn't, I promise"... to convince them not to run for the hills.  :) 

I think speed of evolution might be an uncontrollable thing, anyway.  I don't think we should change from "all-natural"... but... I still have a task to keep the kids from running, even if I'm doing their school homework for them.  I never know who I am helping.  It could be our first 7 yr old GIRL game programmer.  So, I try to treat all noob with the same gentle words and avoidance of overwhelm.  (Which causes me to mistakenly baby-talk/hand-hold the experienced noobs, often.)  (Which makes me look retarded, sometimes.)  :)

I think it should be understood that P8 was not attacking anyone.  Nor am I.  I am simply showing that the fears are there... and that fast framework evolution might be a factor.  Sure, none of us like "docs skippers" (folks who avoid reading docs)... but still... we want to keep them, too, yes?  We want 'em all.  heh.

Do others ever think about how a one-liner Deltakosh lunchbreak forum-help answer... LOOKS to 7-yr old Suzie Proggerwannabe?  "Here Suzie... I'll tape a sentence from a college level projective geometry book... to your forehead.  Did that answer your question?"   We know it won't, and so that thread wanders on and on with...   DK:  blah blah. User: I'm not sure what you mean.  DK: blah blah blah blah.  User:  How do I do that?  etc.  One of us thread rescuers usually jump-in before it goes to 6 or more misunderstandings.  But we see it.  It's giving the user "lip-service".  Most of this is because we don't have the doc to cover that question (so DK can ref it)... and even if we did... the doc would be packed with 2000 words and no diagrams.  So now if 7-yr old Susie Proggerwannabe lives in Gryffbekistan, we're in even MORE trouble... because she can't read the docs.

Can she read the icons/symbols on our new internationalized live-diagrams system?  Maybe.  :)  I would have held more hope... had I got some reactions to it... when I proposed it in The Wingnut Chronicles.  But I can't FORCE people to climb aboard ideas.  I CAN check how "numb" or time-rationed other founders are, though.  Where's the priorities?  Who knows?  We build our own club policies as we go, don't we?  Scary.  heh

In summary, when a young user is already juggling 5 balls, ANY change... is scary.  :D

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I won't speak on davrous behalf, but if what he likes is doing some VR with BJS: it's his own right to do so. As long as he's not breaking the engine in the process, but we all now he won't because it's the number 1 rule.
Saying what we should do, which trend to follow, which strategy to apply is...unreal to me. We are not accountable for the choice of what we decide to contribute on. Really, unless DK states otherwise, that's the way I think things are going.

Now what is interesting to note is the true intent and maybe also the consequences of doing something new. Davrous wants to support VR, ok, he's got the right to do so, hell yes, he's the co-founder of the lib. But there's some kind of being accountable of your contribution to the rest of the community. This is not formally defined but the cursor can goes from doing a PG to demonstrate your feature, writing a blog post, a class documentation, an overview, some tutorials, answering to people using your feature in the forum, and so on. The thing is the contributors don't have the same level of this and I don't judge/blame anyone. Again, this is a free project, doing on free time, how people can blame someone who's contributing!? DK said it in a blog post few months ago: you don't like it, go away, don't use it I would say: please help us to fix the issue by contributing. But blame? It's cheap and convenient.

@Wingnut I understand what you're saying, but the cause of what you say, for me, has nothing to do with "going to fast", making "too many features". Many people come here with no knowledge of 3D they did 2D Games and now are switching to 3D, whether it's BJS, Unity, Unreal Engine of whatever: you've got to learn some 3D skills! When you mention: quaternion, world spaces/matrix, material, shaders: these are not bjs stuffs, but 3D ones! They are universal and almost every 3D engine deal with them the same way, some convention may vary, that's all.

Is it easy to learn 3D? No. Does bjs makes it easier to learn? I don't know, or rather I can't judge, but I would say it helps, yes.

And what is the consequence of having the VR feature supported in the Engine when you work on a simple (or even complex) non VR Scene!? None! Ok, if you look at the Class List in the reference documentation it's getting a lot more and more crowdy, but come one, the impact is null otherwise and I think we can make this statement for 80% of the stuffs.

I will agree with @Temechon when he says "sometimes it's easier to ask a question than look at the doc or dig yourself", yes it happens, it's human, everybody did it and the more the lib is popular the more you'll have to deal with such thing. And that's why I think that a Forum is not the best medium for users/contributors interactions, because with forum it's kind of the groundhog day, you've got the same questions coming over and over again. For me the best medium for users/contributors interaction is a Stack Exchange site. I know I shouldn't say it because it could lead to a whole new wave of topics/rants, but that's my own point of view and it's worth....not much, because I'm not in charge: and that's normal and I accept that.

For me the real pain point, the sources of frustrations are more:

1) At first the tutorial section was enough for the size of the engine, but the lib getting bigger and bigger the list is too big, so it's getting difficult for a new comer to find what he wants (but if he's motivated: he still can). That is why I proposed the Overview section, by doing so I hope it will avoid recurrent "new comers questions" because a tutorial may not be as complete and also the overview is more built like a wiki. For Canvas2D there's one listed entry to learn of to use it, but this entry has links to 20 more pages: it's a wiki and through the years I found that it's the best way to help people to understand what they're getting themselves into. But like I said above this it not something everybody do, and I won't blame/judge.
Maybe the solution to this would be to accept a pulling request of a new feature only if specific requirements in term of documentation are met. Honestly, as a contribution I would think it's a PITA, but I would accept it.

2) I've said it many time internally, but not here, but for me the reference documentation is not good enough. There're two issues: every public class/prop/method should be documented (and despite @jerome's efforts we're not there yet) and a class should list the props/methods of the whole class hierarchy tree: when you look at Mesh, we should also see the props/method of AbstractMesh and Node. I've requested it to @Temechon which he behind the doc system but it's too difficult to do right now.

So again, for me it's not about new stuffs, it's about how we release them. But I'll say this again: considering how the project is ran, I think we do fine. I hope we will improve not only on new features but also how.

Forum questions/answers don't last forever, it should be used only for specific things.

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Woah, I can't believe how much traction this thread got.  And everyone is making very good points.  I really like the disscussion that's happening here.  

I don't think any of us are point fingers or saying anything is wrong with the way we are doing things, I was just kinda thinking future plans and kinda figured a disscusion on how everyone's mind is working and their view of what's best for the community as a whole is nothing but positive.  Glad everyone is taking the seriously. 



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