I saw a comment that really saddened me about HTML 5

[WombatTurkey]

I was checking out Richs` Disquz profile and looking at his recent posts out of curiosity.

 

I then stumbled upon this thread:

 

http://inside.envato.com/farewell-activeden/

 

And at the bottom, a user said:

 

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/insideenvato/farewell_activeden_94/#comment-2269171706

 

 

 

And now we go back to in time with 90's looking HTML5 graphics and games. R.I.P. Flash

 

 

I respect his opinion, but I'm just curious is the HTML 5 market really geared towards 90's looking games? Also, what is wrong with making 90's looking games?

 

I know Rich loves 90's games as evident in his images he used in his latest news announcement and I really love where Phaser is going. I personally don't believe it's geared towards only 90's style games as that's completely subjective to the dev studio. 

 

I mean, there are some crazy HTML 5 games on the market today that are kinda of retro.  Take a look at CrossCode, they have that retro feel to it, but the combat is so modernized and advanced who cares? I think that's just the art style the studio decided to choose.

 

The point I'm getting it as I don't really understand the hatred or jealously of HTML 5.  Is it fair to say HTML 5 is the future while flash will lag behind eventually? Is there any negatives by using HTML 5 compared flash? Is there anything flash can do that HTML 5 cannot? (In today's society) I have zero Flash background so just curious about this! Thanks for reading!

[tips4design]

It probably was just a hate comment from a previous flash developer or something like that, you should ignore it...

[MattMcFarland]

Yeah almost seems like troll-bait! 

 

The current climate indicates flash is dead and not coming back.  HTML 5 on the oherhand is constantly being improved.

[Ninjadoodle]

I used to work with Flash a lot and one of the huge advantages was vector graphics. The problem however was, that everything ran at about 10 fps if you had a slow computer. Over the years there was a LOT of content made with Flash, and not all of it was that great (just look deep inside newgrounds).

 

At this point, HTML5 with WebGL is capable of making exactly the same games as Flash ... I honestly don't think there is any difference, apart from the workflow. It's just that the Flash community was huge and people can't get over the fact, that sadly it is not as prevalent as it was.

 

When HTML5 first started getting out there, people make some pretty crappy games with it. I think a lot of ignorant people are still grasping onto the notion, that this is still the case. There is not as much HTML5 content out there as Flash, but if you look hard enough, there are some seriously impressive pieces of work.

 

I think that a lot of dev are still kinda confused about where to go. Some use Flash, some use Unity (which is discontinuing its web plugin), some use HTML5.

 

Everyone is arguing about what is better, when in reality - all the tools can make great games as long as the creator does what they love.

 

The huge advantage with HTML5 is that it's cross platform, and this is only going to get more apparent as devices get faster and bugs get ironed out.

 

You can't play Flash games on a tv, phone, tablet, and that why HTML5 is the way to go.

[bruno_]

I like the 90s games, so I am cool with that. 2d games and html5 are awesome.

If you want, you can make great games in 3d too.

[BobF]

It probably was just a hate comment from a previous flash developer

 

My thought exactly. Sounds like he's never heard of WebGL. But I can understand a Flash developer being a little bitter about his platform slowly dying. I went through that with Microsoft's Silverlight.

 

Is it fair to say HTML 5 is the future while flash will lag behind eventually?

 

Yes. Without a doubt.

 

Is there anything flash can do that HTML 5 cannot?

 

Yeah, Flash has better access to some OS features than JavaScript, so Flash can do things like read/write to the clipboard, send print jobs to the printer, and allow files to be written to user selected folders (i.e., provides a Save file dialog).

[chg]

For me, it's topics like that one that really sadden me about "HTML5".

The comment doesn't seem like something we should be making fun of - at the risk of being added to the bonfire, I must say there may even be truth behind it.

EDIT: It seems the commenter we're picking on also wrote this (I clicked their icon from the link posted): "Flash must die because HTML5 can't rise by itself!"

[ifritgames]

People can be sad or happy about it, but HTML5 is on the rise for the sole reason that it can even run on your fridge if it can start a browser. My friend has a flatscreen TV what I frequently use to test my games just for the heck of it. Hard to beat such a generic and portable technology on the long run.

[b10b]

Flash games vs HTML5 games is rarely an even playing field so the comments can get pretty brutal.

 

It seems reasonable to a Flash nostalgic to compare browser games designed for desktops with big screens, woofers & keyboard controls ... to browser games designed for a Samsung S3.

 

I find the best response is not to defend HTML5, but to compare Flash with Unity.  HTML5 is incomparable for anyone focused on it's unique attributes, and uninspiring to anyone who isn't.

[ozdy]

You can definitely make Flash quality games in HTML5, if you don't target mobile and just desktop but it's just not as easy and not as profitable in most cases if we compare to Flash market ~2009.

[rich]

I know Rich loves 90's games as evident in his images he used in his latest news announcement and I really love where Phaser is going. I personally don't believe it's geared towards only 90's style games as that's completely subjective to the dev studio. 

 

Just to add that it wasn't me who said "And now we go back to in time with 90's looking HTML5 graphics and games. R.I.P. Flash" - it was obviously some idiot troll who doesn't understand what's possible with HTML5. I would never say something like that, because it's a load of bollocks

[MattMcFarland]

..... Tangent Warning - HTML 5 !== Javascript!

Not to nitpick here, but HTML5 really in context is more about semantics of the the HTML itself.  While latest browsers support Javascript ECMA 5 (and 6 as well) - there is a huge difference IMHO between HTML 5 and Javascript.

 

I am guessing Gamedevs really call it HTML5 mainly because of the <canvas> element, but there is so much more to Javascript than canvas, and honestly the <canvas> element alone is not what makes your "html 5 game" run so well.  but it is Javascript which is a separate animal alltogether.

 

But the Javascript API's that you use for all different kinds of things are from ECMA Specifications, and not HTML 5 itself.

 

For one, Javascript engines differ:

 

You have the V8 Engine running on Google Chrome, SpiderMonkey runs in Firefox, and theres a different engine (cant remember) for MS Edge.  Further more, there are serverside Javascript Engines (v8 for nodejs, and a different one for nginx)

 

Javascript is capable of so much more than <canvas> - and THAT my friends is why flash just can't compete.

 

There are countless jobs now on the market just for NodeJS engineers, in fact NodeJS has really changed the world.  The internet of things is another.

 

But HTML 5 does not "run your refrigerator"  - Javascript does.

 

HTML 5 does not run the TV, it is Javascript.

 

I just want to be clear here, Javascript is really the winner here, not HTML 5.  HTML 5 is nothing but the <canvas> element.  The rest is Javascript and ECMA specifications.

 

You don't see ActionScript serverside engines?  ActionScript DevOps tools?? ActionScript powered lights??

 

I just kindof hope one day we stop calling these games "HTML 5" - because that is misleading. it really is..

 

THanks and sorry for the rant, but it's been weighing on me a bit since I joined the club here, I really like everyone here and dont want to step on anyones toes, but I just have to voice that..

[rich]

I think everyone here is fully comfortable with the fact that we all use html5 as an umbrella term. And one that encompasses far more than just the canvas tag too.

 

JavaScript is the glue, yes, but it's nothing on its own. Which is why we don't call them JavaScript games imho.

[MattMcFarland]

I am going overboard with semantics  But HTML 5 really shouldn't be used as the umbrella term.  ECMA Script is not goverened by the same principals as HTML 5.  HTML 5 is really more about the markup language.  It's like saying CSS 3 is part of HTML 5, and its not. Javascript is separate.  The only umbrella would be that it runs in a browser, but that's no longer true, javascript runs in many other things other than the browser, and games could be created without a canvas for that matter (some text games in command line even) 

 

And if anything is the glue, its HTML 5 or <canvas> haha

 

Again, I might be going overboard so excuse me :3

[rich]

Not overboard, just preaching to the converted imho.

 

It's almost irrelevant what technologies are actually covered under the term as it's become so prevalent that I doubt will ever actually go away. And it really doesn't need to, because the vast majority understand what it means when it comes down to it.

 

Put it this way - what's the alternative? Can you think of a single term to sum-up the hundreds of APIs available that we glue together with JS when making a game?

[MattMcFarland]

Ahh so sorry to come off preachy.  I get too passionate sometimes and I hate to come off that way

 

I guess it just depends.. In the game dvelopment world, I think yes "HTML 5" means you know javascript, but my colleagues in the web application development world don't view HTML 5 as "javascript and css 3 and all those APIs" - they just view it as html 5 - but I think it's just a different view point.  I wouldn't put "HTML 5" on my resume without putting javascript and css3, amongst adding the tons of APIs as well (at least the relevant ones).. But you get the gist.

[chg]

Put it this way - what's the alternative? Can you think of a single term to sum-up the hundreds of APIs available that we glue together with JS when making a game?

DHTML + HTML5? DHTML5? (I propose these tongue in cheek, I always hated the term "DHTML" and it confused people more than HTML5 does in my experience; I do think though HTML5 even when taken to mean the standards does cover much of the technology stack including the DOM APIs)

[BobF]

I suspect most people here are using "HTML 5" as an abbreviation for "HTML 5 + JavaScript". The JavaScript is just assumed since you don't normally see HTML 5 without it.

[MattMcFarland]

I agree, I believe most people are basically abbreviating the tech stack with just "HTML 5" - the sad thing is, if someone were to never really learn HTML 5 itself but learned how to make awesome games in javascript using the HTML 5 canvas, they would not understand actual HTML 5, where canvas is just a tiny part of it.  For example, HTML 5 is about semantics, and using proper markup instead of <divs> all over the place.  It's very important to know that for WAI-ARIA / WCAG accessibility etc.  But you probably will see them putting "HTML 5" on their resume, but that's hardly the case. I hope that makes sense.  I personally think JS game dev is more acurrate, since HTML 5 has a lot of other things that have nothing to do with JS, and someone with pure knowledge on making awesome games in an HTML 5 canvas with JS but never really studied HTML 5 itself would fail miserably with semantics and HTML 5 usage.  not that it's more difficult though, JS is by far more of a challenge, so if someone could make games in JS / HTML 5 they'd probably be an expert with HTML 5 in short time if they wanted.. ok I'm ranting now, but I hope my point is making sense.

 

And why I think these should be considered JS games isntead of HTML 5?  Because its more accurate.  Maybe I'm wrong?? But i think the most of the games (especially using Pixi/phaser etc) are purely written in Javascript.  They're really Javascript games, not HTML 5 games.  I dont see how HTML 5 is needed to glue everything in, but maybe I'm missing something?

 

I mean I'm a software engineer for clientside development, and I purely write in Javascript(sometimes some C# and server admin stuff), we make web applications instead of web sites, and we dont say we make html 5 web sites, we make javascript web applications.  I guess the web application world and game development world just use different semantics :3

 

But honestly, HTML 5 covers so much that yes you can always call these html 5 games.. because HTML 5 is indeed the umbrella.  Ok sorry for ranting:

 

tl;dr:  I personally like saying its a javascript game more than an html 5 game if I wrote all of it in javascript, but I also think that html 5 game still describes it.

[chg]

@MattMcFarland I think we're now thoroughly off topic; but I suspect describing the "tech stack" rather than the language is common even outside of HTML5 gaming. eg. OpenGL game vs C++ game, Flash game vs AS3 game, MIDP game vs Java game, Unity game vs c#/UnityScript/Boo game...

EDIT: I kept thinking about it and it probably goes as far as saying things like SNES game and DOS game, at that point it's pretty clear that the pattern is that it's not the developer's perspective but rather what the player needs to play the game - so when you say HTML5 game it's more about saying to the audience that if they've a HTML5 capable browser that they should be able to play

[MattMcFarland]

Yeah sorry to go off topic.. and if you look at HTML 5 here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/HTML/HTML5  - games fall in the HTML 5 category as far as mozilla is concerned.

 

So yeah, I think I'm just going overboard with semantics

 

EDIT and good catch about the player perspective 

[chg]

Yeah sorry to go off topic.. and if you look at HTML 5 here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/HTML/HTML5  - games fall in the HTML 5 category as far as mozilla is concerned.

 

So yeah, I think I'm just going overboard with semantics

Honestly I'm curious, did you also hate the term "DHTML"?

And given the discussion on semantics I can't not say it for any longer... please stop putting a space between HTML and 5 you're killing me lol

[MattMcFarland]

lol to answer your question, I dislike DHTML as well.   I think its a joke around here at work, goes like this:

"Hey, do you remember DHTML??"

 

Both: LOL

 

 

Not sure why you don't like the space??  

[chg]

Not sure why you don't like the space??

Here's a link to the Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group (WHATWG) blog : https://blog.whatwg.org/spelling-html5 HTML5 is officially spelt without a space - you also may like former name "Web Applications 1.0"

[b10b]

MattMcFarland, I think you make a good point.  HTML5-games is a misleading name for it - it's like calling a latte a coffee!  Flash-games had the same issue - many were not made with Flash, and Swf-games or Abc-games was probably the more accurate term.  But unless we go super generic like web-games or browser-games I doubt there's a more accepted term than HTML5-games today?  Possibly WebGL-games is one of the few terms gaining traction?

 

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=javascript%20games%2C%20html5%20games%2C%20webgl%20games%2C%20web%20games%2C%20browser%20games&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B7

 

Personally I don't much care whether a web-game is Flash, HTML, CSS, Javascript, WebGL etc - I just care about the benefit it offers the consumer.  In our sales literature, we never mention HTML5, we just emphasise the value of the solution to a problem - i.e. games that work on every device without installation that can be updated instantly.  That means "HTML5-games" today, it might not tomorrow.  Plus if we did mention HTML5 explicitly we would be concerned it will become an obsolete term faster than Flash (due to the version number if nothing else).